Bald Mountain
Orion Charter Township, MI · 1 course · 18 holes
Whoever set par for the amateur layout is a little sadistic for the stretch from 10 to 12 specifically (the rest is tough but fair). I grant that it's a championship level course (and maybe the Am lay ...
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Whoever set par for the amateur layout is a little sadistic for the stretch from 10 to 12 specifically (the rest is tough but fair). I grant that it's a championship level course (and maybe the Am layout would be the FPO layout for a pro tour event --- and this course absolutely deserves consideration for one). But I'd like to posit (with the best of intentions, an open mind, and a good-natured tone) that at least two of these three holes should be par 4s for the Am layout under PDGA guidelines even assuming the par is set to the MA1 level.
First issue is which method you're using to set par. I would argue that the best method for this course takes effective hole length and foliage into account due to the elevation changes and, well, foliage.
Hole 10: 387' UDisc/415' official length. I don't think there's a major elevation change on this hole but I can't remember for sure. Admittedly if MA1 is the target for par this is a tough but fair par 3. If this tee is intended for FPO/MA2, however, the narrow line through heavy foliage could dictate a par 4. In a vacuum this hole is fine as a par 3 but given that it's between a devilish 666' par 5 and the next two holes, par 3 is a bit brutal.
Hole 11: 451' UDisc/436' official length. The main reason this one feels off is that the Am and Pro layouts share a teepad and par. That's perfectly fine for short or simple par 3s but this one is tougher than that. It's on the borderline between par 3 and 4 and really depends on the real effective length of the hole. Maybe the real issue here is that another teepad would be nice on this hole (monkey's paw: there's some space for a Pro pad back on that alternate pathway from hole 10...).
Hole 12: 445' UDisc/408' official length. This is the one. The eye is understandably drawn to the twin par 5s closing out the front and back 9, but hole 12 is the truly brutal climb up the Mountain. The major issue here is that the Pro layout is a par 4 while being only a bit farther and a bit more uphill. The official lengths are 408' and 505' but it sure looks like much less than 100' between the two. Regardless, even if the true length from the Am pad is 408', the effective length must be at least 450'.
According to the PDGA guidelines, the effective length adds three times the elevation change to the actual length. I'm not sure what the actual elevation change is but it feels like at least 15' (as an extremely conservative estimate). That means the effective length is at least 408+(3*15)=408+45=453. Given the trees, the climb, and the slight dogleg, this is insane as a par 3. I have a suspicion this hole (again, the Am layout) would be tough for the field at an Elite Series event let alone MA1/FPO.
I hope this post comes across as good-natured because I love this course and really want the best for it. I'm open to correction and discussion; I'm nowhere near an expert nor am I even close to MA1 level. I don't expect anyone to read this whole comment let alone actually agree or make any changes but I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion.
Tl;dr: Make hole 12 a par 4.
Jul 18
First issue is which method you're using to set par. I would argue that the best method for this course takes effective hole length and foliage into account due to the elevation changes and, well, foliage.
Hole 10: 387' UDisc/415' official length. I don't think there's a major elevation change on this hole but I can't remember for sure. Admittedly if MA1 is the target for par this is a tough but fair par 3. If this tee is intended for FPO/MA2, however, the narrow line through heavy foliage could dictate a par 4. In a vacuum this hole is fine as a par 3 but given that it's between a devilish 666' par 5 and the next two holes, par 3 is a bit brutal.
Hole 11: 451' UDisc/436' official length. The main reason this one feels off is that the Am and Pro layouts share a teepad and par. That's perfectly fine for short or simple par 3s but this one is tougher than that. It's on the borderline between par 3 and 4 and really depends on the real effective length of the hole. Maybe the real issue here is that another teepad would be nice on this hole (monkey's paw: there's some space for a Pro pad back on that alternate pathway from hole 10...).
Hole 12: 445' UDisc/408' official length. This is the one. The eye is understandably drawn to the twin par 5s closing out the front and back 9, but hole 12 is the truly brutal climb up the Mountain. The major issue here is that the Pro layout is a par 4 while being only a bit farther and a bit more uphill. The official lengths are 408' and 505' but it sure looks like much less than 100' between the two. Regardless, even if the true length from the Am pad is 408', the effective length must be at least 450'.
According to the PDGA guidelines, the effective length adds three times the elevation change to the actual length. I'm not sure what the actual elevation change is but it feels like at least 15' (as an extremely conservative estimate). That means the effective length is at least 408+(3*15)=408+45=453. Given the trees, the climb, and the slight dogleg, this is insane as a par 3. I have a suspicion this hole (again, the Am layout) would be tough for the field at an Elite Series event let alone MA1/FPO.
I hope this post comes across as good-natured because I love this course and really want the best for it. I'm open to correction and discussion; I'm nowhere near an expert nor am I even close to MA1 level. I don't expect anyone to read this whole comment let alone actually agree or make any changes but I thought it would be interesting to start a discussion.
Tl;dr: Make hole 12 a par 4.
show 16 earlier comments

In the 2nd to last paragraph I should say "tough for the field to birdie." Either way maybe a slight ...
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In the 2nd to last paragraph I should say "tough for the field to birdie." Either way maybe a slight exaggeration; the point is that par for that layout isn't set for a player who can drive 400' uphill (or upmountain) in the woods.



I can’t speech for anyone else , but I personally change the par for every sanctioned event, I eit ...
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I can’t speech for anyone else , but I personally change the par for every sanctioned event, I either base it on the projected average of all players , or the projected average of the best division playing, typically MA2 is the best divisions playing short tees, if a hole gets zero birdies but still averages under 3.5, I will usually make it a 3,




Bald Mountain fan here and sub 900 rated player. I think if holes ten and eleven were to be par 4s y ...
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Bald Mountain fan here and sub 900 rated player. I think if holes ten and eleven were to be par 4s you'd get too many birdies. The reason I love this course is for the challenge and too many birdieable holes (for me) would dilute that love a bit. I think the design is top notch and I just saw the YouTube drone flyover footage and that is also top notch (great commentary!).


Also I agree, in reality 10/11 are fine as Par 3s. I should have focused on 12 instead of all three ...
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Also I agree, in reality 10/11 are fine as Par 3s. I should have focused on 12 instead of all three of those holes as I stand by the notion that 12 is a par 4. Regardless I do think it would be cool to see an additional tee on hole 11, either a Pro tee back where I noted or an Am tee up a bit and to the right of the Pro.

And I know it doesn't exactly "matter" but par does serve several purposes. Like I said I just enjoy ...
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And I know it doesn't exactly "matter" but par does serve several purposes. Like I said I just enjoy discussing these kinds of things and I love this course a lot. If I were on the pro tour I'd be telling Jomez that this is my home course and pushing for them to add an event here. Once it's 36 holes assuming the new 18 are as brilliantly crafted as the Hills it absolutely has to be considered for an event and possibly a Major.





Love it. Does that mean the current #18 would move to the other course or would the Hills course kee ...
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Love it. Does that mean the current #18 would move to the other course or would the Hills course keep its layout? I did notice a random basket off to the southeast of hole 1 (doesn't appear to have a cage on it) which solidified the rumors in my head. But I do apologize if I let the cat out of the bag (and I can delete comments if you want it to be a secretL



The Lakes course, which would include the current holes 17 and 18 are at the moment not in the plans ...
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The Lakes course, which would include the current holes 17 and 18 are at the moment not in the plans. The extra basket is out there for a tournament that has already been played. They haven't removed it yet. If an when I can talk the park into the 2nd course, it will not be a secret :-D !