DGLA: Michigan Cooperative Point Series - Summer 2012

A few asked about the DGLA Titan Pro Basket Raffle, as I posted we were trying to determine a large Disc Golf event to hold this raffle at or to do it at States. The list of ticket holders was also po ... show more ›

A few asked about the DGLA Titan Pro Basket Raffle, as I posted we were trying to determine a large Disc Golf event to hold this raffle at or to do it at States. The list of ticket holders was also posted and is still online (I need to add four names that I'm aware of) http://www.discgolfleagueassociation.org/Point_Series/2012_micps_s_basket_Raffle.pdf

The list above with this update should complete the list - let me know if you have questions or concerns.

Friday June 22, 2012 5:30pm 24 Cha!ns Summer 2012 Lakeshore
Bill Hampp
David Shoup (Bird)
Derek Trinkle
JB Tree

Note this list linked online has all the names and then each event and who bought what when.....

I will be gone for two weeks and may not be able to attend States this years so I am thinking we will draw the winner this Tuesday at Ypsi Dubs since people seem to be in a hurry to get in more practice ;-)

Ok I'll update the list with the last names and will post the winner after we pull the winning ticket this Tuesday Ypsi Dubs.

Talking about baskets - a basket was stolen from Vienna park about a month ago and now a basket has been stolen from the St Aubin's side yard just across from Vienna park. Please keep a look out for anyone with a New / Old basket. The St Aubin's basket is a Innova practice basket, yellow metal top, some rust and marks on the bottom stand from the mower. The St Aubin's help keep that course in good shape, run leagues for all to enjoy and are great ambassadors to the sport. I am deeply sadden to think that a Disc Golfer would do this. Keep an eye out for these baskets or any other basket that looks like it was pulled from a course.

I wanted to go ahead and send a shot out to: Foz, Scott, Pete, and anyone else with hands on development of the DGLA. Thanks for the time put in, and creating a united Community of people who all sh ... show more ›

I wanted to go ahead and send a shot out to: Foz, Scott, Pete, and anyone else with hands on development of the DGLA. Thanks for the time put in, and creating a united Community of people who all share the same passion. I had a blast this summer - met some new people, played great courses, got a bit better at the game, and was able to somehow win some prizes. I am glad the DGLA promotes feedback from the players, but regardless of any potential "tweaking" that may come about, the bottom line has been achieved. Thanks again...Cheers.

Have faith in Father Foz and the rest of innner cirle! He is a busy man....I am sure when he gets a chance he will post the basket raffle winner. Has the most integrity of any discer I know....P ... show more ›

Have faith in Father Foz and the rest of innner cirle! He is a busy man....I am sure when he gets a chance he will post the basket raffle winner. Has the most integrity of any discer I know....Props to all that offer their time to make DGLA work!......also i will pay cash money for DGLA wizards that are unwanted from player memebers that aren't throwing theirs......


ps. I have some history with basket raffles and Foz......check indy lake for proof!

The point series doesn't need to affect the individual leagues' experiences. We don't mandate they use any kind of point, percentage, or handicap system-- just that they post their raw scores. As ... show more ›

The point series doesn't need to affect the individual leagues' experiences.
We don't mandate they use any kind of point, percentage, or handicap system-- just that they post their raw scores.

As for new players, if they're coming out to a competition for the first time, do they really expect to win?

Another problem with points per players beat is that it discourages the really new players or friends, wives, girlfriends from coming along to a league. I've seen it in small leagues even where thes ... show more ›

Another problem with points per players beat is that it discourages the really new players or friends, wives, girlfriends from coming along to a league. I've seen it in small leagues even where these noobs are treated just as extra points for the other players. However you can't handicap a first time player either. A major flaw with handicap is lack of data. That's why it would be great if we could pull scores from other database and websites. And maybe use some PDGA ratings and data to prepopulate a handicap system.

Understood. However we're Missing the point of the greater goal. There may always be shady players, leagues, etc but we can't let that be a reason to not improve the system and do something that would ... show more ›

Understood. However we're Missing the point of the greater goal. There may always be shady players, leagues, etc but we can't let that be a reason to not improve the system and do something that would benefit the majority of layers overall. Handicap works well, but it also introduces compression in the ability for consistent players to really do that much better than their average, but poorer players can. Awarding 100% to a league winner acknowledges the accomplishment as equal to wining any other league regardless of number of players. Yes, the shady unscrupulous guys will move around to small leagues in hopes of crushing the competition and getting 100%, but for what? Some recognition as a winner? Those who know and those who are honest will not place honor or value on that recognition so overall it's meaningless anyway. Maybe we need some type of multiplier applied after the percent based points system to account for the number of players beat overall. Maybe we should do this as a year end multiplier so that it averages over all the leagues you play all season. This would still reward a win but also take into account on some level the number of players you beat all year.

The BCS had flaws, but maybe we need a multi faceted approach like that. Start by tracking 3 different results? We could track points based on percent based wins, points per player beaten, and even percent based points per event played (your acerage finish per event), and then add those three together for an overall results finish in the league. So say I played in 25 events all year and finished 1st or 2nd every other time, but there were only 10 players per event. My percent based points would be (100 x 13) + (90 x 12) = 2380. My points based results would be (10 x13) + (9 x12) = 238. My average percent per league would be 2380 / 25 = 95.2. So, I would have an overall leaderboard standing in each of those categories which could be averaged for the final leaderboard. I'd say we throw a handicap based leaderboard result standings into the average as well. That way we could take a little bit of everything and satisfy the majority of players. Each individual leaderboard would also be worth playing for personally. The up and coming player may want to just win the handicap leaderboard. The guy who consistently wins league may want win the percent per event leaderboard. Each leaderboard would have overall significance to specific players and by averaging them all we could fairly crown an overall winner and better rank everyone across the state relative to multiple different measurements.

I wasn't saying every league with 10 players is a bunch of bums. That is taking it out of context. I'm just saying if it were set up like u wish, then there would be leagues like that. And ken climo a ... show more ›

I wasn't saying every league with 10 players is a bunch of bums. That is taking it out of context. I'm just saying if it were set up like u wish, then there would be leagues like that. And ken climo also understands that more players = bigger rewards. IE why he plays NT's and Majors....not unsanctioned events with 10 pros.

DGcoursereview.com also has a database of scores we could tap into potentially in effort to build out database of player scores for good handicapping. I personally have over 223 rounds loaded into the ... show more ›

DGcoursereview.com also has a database of scores we could tap into potentially in effort to build out database of player scores for good handicapping. I personally have over 223 rounds loaded into there. I'm falling behind on my reviews though and have about a dozen to enter including Flip City, Conifer Park, Phantom Falls, Leviathan, and Zobel Park.

Speaking of DGcourse review, I wish there were some way to load those reviews into this site. The reviews here are poor at best, by comparison. (oh, yet another tangent). Im just sick of entering my scores an reviews into so many different websites - one tied-together mega site would be the cats a$$ (why do people say that?!)

Thanks for the feedback Tim. I'll get in touch with you regarding the handicap system that Pete, Foz and I are working on. If anyone else is interested please send me a message. I agree with ... show more ›

Thanks for the feedback Tim. I'll get in touch with you regarding the handicap system that Pete, Foz and I are working on. If anyone else is interested please send me a message.

I agree with you that a handicap league has a huge and relatively untapped potential for growth. The most consistent gripe we hear about the point series is that the good players always win, and the mid-level player in a mid-size league has no chance.

The first sentence of the mission statement of DGLA:
"The Disc Golf League Association (DGLA) is an organization that promotes disc golf by supporting: disc golf leagues for all levels of players, course creation and improvements, and the growth of local clubs and leagues."

Growth is key for us, and if giving that mid-level or beginner player in a regular sized league the ability to compete on even footing with the best players in Michigan promotes more players playing leagues then we are all for it!

We have the infrastructure (DGS/Pete Crist), organization (DGLA), and competition (MICPS) in place. Now it's on us to add the handicap system.

I disagree that beating 100 players is harder to do. Not if you are a great player, or the local pro, whatever. It is just more likely that there will be better players and more competition for you. ... show more ›

I disagree that beating 100 players is harder to do. Not if you are a great player, or the local pro, whatever. It is just more likely that there will be better players and more competition for you. Take Ken Climo for example. He'd smoke leagues of 10, 100, or 500 players. Good players win, simple enough concept.

It is also unfair to say that winning in a league of 10 is just beating a bunch of bums.

The comparison to hockey scoring fits better with the percent based scoring system. IE, a point for a win (100%), and something lesser for a tie (although in this case all non winners at a league get a smaller percent of the total 100.

While equating a win in a league of 100 players versus a win in a league of 10 players, and saying its not fair that both players get the same 100% points has some validity, the percent point system comes more into play with the rest of the field. Notably second place in the 100 player league gets 99% while second place in the 10 player league gets just 90%.

The reason I brought it up in the first place wasn't necessarily to whine and complain. I don't care about the points or where I stand. I just wanted to discuss some options. I'm a career engineer who is heavily involved in analyzing data, statistics, and trending. I think there are better ways to mathematically calculate results and make things more fair, but it requires a lot of input and data. More than the average league wants to build into the system. I strongly believe though that a handicap system is the best way to improve league play and our sport for the recreational, semi-competitive users (almost ALL leagues). By playing against yourself, everyone has fun, and the sport grows. There will always be the whiners who want to continually be rewarded for natural skill and always taking cash at local leagues (and these same whiners don't typically do any more than they have to, nor do they travel and play unfamiliar courses, nor do they play competitive tournaments). I believe the majority of players see no real problem with rewarding the player who throws 10 strokes better than their average with a win. A hit round is always fun to see, even if it is just relative to averages at different skill levels. The same goes for watching an up and coming player continue to grow each and every week, getting better and better. Personally I'd also prefer to see my local league run this way. While we are non-competition based (except for points, because we only compete for optional opt-in ace pools, CTP, and longest putt during rounds, I'd like to instill some competition at least on a personal level by playing for and rewarding overall finish based on handicaps. Despite myself typically finishing high in leagues, I want no reward for a sub-par round if some other player has an amazing (relative to themselves) round.

Administrators, now that I am in MI, I want to contribute to this scene. Let me know if I can help with any data management or calculations on spreadsheets of results in an effort to build a robust handicap system. Maybe we don't have to do it ourselves here, DGU does handicap league play and we may only need to enter some previous round data, or have players do it themselves.

All forward progress is progress. Trying to create and reinvent something that would appeal and be useful to a wide and dynamic range of players is a ever daunting task that these fine peoples have t ... show more ›

All forward progress is progress. Trying to create and reinvent something that would appeal and be useful to a wide and dynamic range of players is a ever daunting task that these fine peoples have taken and ran away with. I think the amount of hard work that they have put in is unreal and needs to be commended more often than what it is. Trying to create a point series and level the playing field to keep it attractive to small and large leagues while also bringing everything from newbies to pro's is a crazy idea and guess what.. It is working. Now that we are starting to get PDGA sanction leagues included into the mix I am really interested to see what changes are going to be made within the system.

Many thanks to the men behind the curtain and their countless and sometimes thankless hours of hard work. CHA!!!

Success! Thanks Mike and I think about 60% of the players have your same perspective. We work hard to find ways to make it work for everyone else no matter if they are out for fun or heavy competiti ... show more ›

Success! Thanks Mike and I think about 60% of the players have your same perspective. We work hard to find ways to make it work for everyone else no matter if they are out for fun or heavy competition. The key is just as you said - it's great to be able to see where about you end up compared to everyone else. Just having doubles in the mix means these numbers are not a perfect reflection of your individual performance but over time it gets close enough and with discussions like this we will keep thinking and tweaking - Thanks Mike for the feedback

I have always interrupted the "points system" on the scene much like the points system in Professional hockey. Points for a win, points for a tie, and no points if you lost. Which is pretty much how ... show more ›

I have always interrupted the "points system" on the scene much like the points system in Professional hockey. Points for a win, points for a tie, and no points if you lost. Which is pretty much how you have it here, except you actually get a point if you play the league round. In major spots you don't get more points if you beat X amount of teams or how good the other team is. It is only logical to apply a similar points structure to our Professional sport as well. You guys have an EXTREMELY fair points system and thanks for all the hard work you guys have put into it. Each year you guys adjust, tweak and strive to make things better and better. I play to have fun and I'm not even touching the Top 100 when it comes to points, but it's nice to see how I rank next to all the baggers :)

Maybe it is easier to say it this way: For small leagues, less than 19 players - they get a small point equalizer to make them more like a leagues of size 20. So if you have only 6, 12, 18 player ... show more ›

Maybe it is easier to say it this way:

For small leagues, less than 19 players - they get a small point equalizer to make them more like a leagues of size 20. So if you have only 6, 12, 18 players the winner gets the same points as if they won a 20 player league. Get's them closer to the majority of the leagues, encourages players to play a small start-up league and helps that league grow. Most of the leagues fall into the middle tier and simply get the points based on how many people they beat - all the way up to 59 players. At 60 players the top points are capped but that's a lot of points and no one can get more for a single league round unless it's a HLW. Now that also means unfortunately that there are more at the bottom of the big leagues that just get the 2 points for participation but that is motivation to work to get to the top or at least up further. I hope that helps describe the actual impact and reasoning behind the three tier approach.

The struggle is trying to apply a single system to all the different size and types of leagues. Hopefully one day soon we will have singles PS, Doubles PS, Divisional PS and they can each have a different system if desired but it's great to have something that we can pull all the leagues together so everyone in the state can see who is doing what.

There is it just is not as big a difference than it was when all leagues were treated the same. The only limit is when a league is bigger than 60 players, so there is not a difference between beating ... show more ›

There is it just is not as big a difference than it was when all leagues were treated the same. The only limit is when a league is bigger than 60 players, so there is not a difference between beating 100 players versus 62 players but that is the trade off to try and balance the many small leagues and most only average 30 players. Very few leagues exceed 30 - 50 players on a regular basis.

But your right winning a league and beating 59 players should be rewarded more than winning a 18 player leagues and that is how it is currently.

4-19 players < 18 points minimum for the winner
20-59 players < no minimum or maximum points
60+ players < 60 points maximum for the winner

Also on "Border leagues" - currently there is no rule to define how to handle this. We brought this topic up at our last public DGLA meeting after it was brought to our attention. The result of that ... show more ›

Also on "Border leagues" - currently there is no rule to define how to handle this. We brought this topic up at our last public DGLA meeting after it was brought to our attention. The result of that discussion was to put this to a vote of the DGLA members to decide how to improve the Point Series rules. This will happen this Fall, in which all DGLA members can voice their opinion and help define the direction of the PS for the future. If you have an opinion please make sure you are a registered member of DGLA, it currently free to join. The more players we have the better the voice of the members represent the players in general.

The boarder leagues that play some leagues in the state and some outside the state is tricky. We want to encourage travel to other courses and leagues. As long as the league is open to all players than anyone in the PS can go and play and get points then then should this be prohibited?

To change this we need to add a rule and the auto-calculation needs to be modified to filter out rounds played outside the state which is more effort and not under our control.

Private leagues are also a topic being voted on. In a Point Series should a private league be allowed. Again our charter tries to get as many leagues involved for visibility, encourage travel and growth. Highlighted Leagues of the Week are meant to encourage players to travel but they may not be able to play a private league's HLW if it is Private. The discussion on this seems to be headed down the path of some private leagues that are based on under represented demographics (Youth and women) should be allowed but others should not.... What do you think? Vote and let your views be represented....

http://www.discgolfleagueassociation.org/Bots/Membership/register.cgi

If it helps to understand the point system currently used please check out the posted information on the DGLA site: General info on the Point Series http://www.discgolfleagueassociation.org/Point_ ... show more ›

If it helps to understand the point system currently used please check out the posted information on the DGLA site:

General info on the Point Series
http://www.discgolfleagueassociation.org/Point_Series/point_series.html

Here is the section on how points are calculated independently from what a league uses.

http://www.discgolfleagueassociation.org/Point_Series/Summary____Rules/summary____rules.html#4.2.2%20Cal%20of%20PS%20Points

The goal was to reduce the impact of a small league versus a large league but still encourage large leagues. Note the middle tier is the old method that used to apply to all leagues. The new (3 seasons old now) three tier system limits the large leagues and boast the smaller leagues, but still you will get the most points by beating everyone in a large league which is harder. The goal of DGLA and the Point Series is to encourage play, more new leagues (which start out small) and provide an environment where leagues large and small, singles and doubles can be combined into a single venue so everyone in the participating area can see what everyone else (leagues and players) are doing - encouraging more play, travel to different leagues, spreading of the best ideas and methods.

The best system will be a handicap and the Disc Golf Scene is working on that right now. Even with a handicap system there will still be issues but overall we are getting closer and closer.

Thanks for the comments and ideas - this is great.

The first round here you can see that the small leagues get a points boost. I was mistaken earlier, the winner of a small league can get 22 points - 2 extra for winning outright and 2 extra for partic ... show more ›

The first round here you can see that the small leagues get a points boost. I was mistaken earlier, the winner of a small league can get 22 points - 2 extra for winning outright and 2 extra for participation.
http://www.discgolfscene.com/leagues/DGLA_Michigan_Cooperative_Point_Series-Summer_2012/leaderboards/rounds/week_15

Points are distributed with 1 point for each player you beat, 2 points for participation and 2 points for winning outright, i.e. not tying for first place.

When a league is outside of the middle scoring bracket, the point totals are adjusted to add or subtract the appropriate amount of points based on the bracket.

All the points for the Point Series are awarded automatically when the individual leagues post their scores. The leagues can have their own independent point system and leaderboard.

As for the handicap, the green ratings below some of your singles scores are the start of what I hope will be a robust, community-managed handicap system.

Hmm. I was not aware of the point minimum or maximum based on number of players. At least, I have not seen it in the results for league up here. Is this something which is automatically calculated, or ... show more ›

Hmm. I was not aware of the point minimum or maximum based on number of players. At least, I have not seen it in the results for league up here. Is this something which is automatically calculated, or is it done by hand when the league administrator enters scores?

Also, do the 18 points get evenly distributed amongst all players. EG does the guy who finished middle of the pack get 9 points?

One last things on a different subject, with all the league scores you have, and even some PDGA rating information, would you be able to calculate and administer a handicap league? I strongly encourage rewarding those players who have outstanding and out-of-the-norm rounds.